Whose Planet Is It Anyway? Exploring the Ownership of the Environment

🌍 Whose Planet Is It Anyway? Exploring the Ownership of the Environment --> Dive into the debate over environmental ownership! #EcoOwnership #SustainableFuture"

Useful Resources
Juliana v. United States — Our Children's Trust
18 California children are suing the EPA over climate change - capradio.org
Montana Youths Win Key Climate Lawsuit on Their Right to a 'Clean and Healthful Environment' | Smart News| Smithsonian Magazine
The legal battles changing the course of climate change
European court rules human rights violated by climate inaction
Climate Lawsuits Are On The Rise. This Is What They’re Based On. – State of the Planet

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Transcript

Chadwick (00:02.092)
Here we are. It's Saturday. That means we're recording.

Shane (00:05.166)
It is Saturday.

Shane (00:09.998)
As usual, another episode of Garb and Lee Conversations.

Chadwick (00:14.636)
went out too fresh for a

Shane (00:16.494)
If you've listened to us before, you know the drill, follow us on Instagram, YouTube.

Chadwick (00:25.484)
Just I just want to say smash that like button. It's so good for the algorithm Which I heard in two plays in the last month like as a lie So I'm just like it's true, but it's part of no ours subculture pop culture

Shane (00:28.494)
Smash that like button. Yeah.

Shane (00:35.246)
Bye.

Shane (00:38.894)
Yeah, I have to create a I have to help my mom create a YouTube blog in because she's logged into my YouTube account at her house and my algorithms all messed up. She watches the most random videos. And then when my nephew's there, she lets him watch like I forget what the little kid's name is. Ryan, it's this kid named Ryan that I mean, he gets millions of views on every video. It's just this little kid that.

Chadwick (00:47.18)
Oh no.

And you get to see what your mom is searching.

Chadwick (00:57.964)
Mm -hmm.

Shane (01:09.678)
just does stuff, shows you how to make slime and whatever. So now I've got all these other videos across my timeline and it's just throwing my algorithm off really bad on my YouTube page, so.

Chadwick (01:21.1)
Oh yeah, you may never get back to where you were. That may be good, maybe bad. Yeah, so smash that like button, disrupt your algorithm. Get your carbon lay, subscribe.

Shane (01:25.07)
Maybe not, but.

Smash the like, subscribe. Yes, subscribe to us. We're a little slow on TikTok, but we try to put some things here and there on TikTok for you guys. But.

Chadwick (01:42.124)
And we got plenty of back backstory to go and just dive deep into us. That doesn't sound appropriate, but.

Shane (01:49.006)
Yeah, I'm willing to bet there's no listener out there, maybe other than us that have listened to. Maybe. I mean, I haven't even went back and listened to every single episode we've released. So there's plenty out there. Check us out. You can go down a rabbit hole and spend all day listening to us talk. So. The Carbony Hole. But.

Chadwick (02:00.268)
Yeah.

Chadwick (02:05.772)
A carbon lay hole shade. They can go down a carbon the hole go dig deep into the carbon lay universe Or the carbon leave verse. Oh, I like that one Anyways, yeah

Shane (02:13.518)
Yep.

Shane (02:18.19)
I think today's topic, I think is a lot different and newer than things that we usually talk about somewhat relate to each other. But I think today's topic is a really different lane than what we've taken before.

Chadwick (02:33.196)
Yeah, I think that's really fair I didn't even think about it like that because it to me it like rolls up into like You know, how do we get to a more sustainable future and what are the things we can all do here and there? Because as our listeners and and maybe new listeners will come to learn as we try to make it practical applicable to Where we're at in our lives, you know, I always like to say like Shane and I can't

we don't believe we can rally the troops to close multiple coal plants. Don't have the time, don't have the expertise, and they're gonna make a big impact on the environment, on having these coal plants. There's other ramifications if you close coal plants, and I won't digress because I like to do that. But we wanna get in that lane of what we can do, and I think this is kind of a lane of what you can do, but it's also really interesting. And I sent it your way.

Shane, because like it's a an area of reading that I've I've flirted with over the last like 10 years of learning. But it really like rallies around who truly owns the right of a clean environment, right? Whose responsibility is for that and who owns it? And we shared an article that was published in the BBC, but you can find a lot of different other news organizations.

talking about the European court, which is the EU court system, rules that a human rights violated by climate in action. So in essence, there's this group of older Swiss women who have won their the first ever climate case victory in a European court of human rights. And the women, mostly in their 70s, said, more or less argued the case that because of their age and gender, it's made them particularly vulnerable to the effects of heat waves.

linked to climate change. And when they presented their case and others like this, the court decided that what Switzerland said they were going to do to lower their carbon footprint and lower their carbon emissions, they've been lacking. And actually, I haven't been held accountable to the statements they made, but the actions that they've been doing to get there. And the...

Chadwick (04:49.1)
European courts sided with this group of old ladies and said yeah, Switzerland is harming you because they're pretty much saying like when we have hate waves Can't go outside and we like to go outside. We want to go and do shit Like we didn't just get old to die. We got old to go and be adventurous and do fun things. And so these like increase of climate a weather related events like actually impacts her life and And I'll I'll kind of turn over and get your perspective and reaction to all that but that's

That's what got me all excited and shared this with Shane. And for me, it just rallies around that thought or that question of like, who truly owns the right of a clean environment? Like whose responsibility and who owns it? Which I think is the most carpantly question to ask.

Shane (05:31.054)
Yeah.

Shane (05:35.022)
Yeah, I mean, it's an interesting situation because while I do agree with these women that were part of this lawsuit, I'm also just kind of like, well, if everyone starts doing that, like...

first of all, like where's that money gonna come from? So like if we're suing our city or something like that, then in the long run, us as taxpayers are going to pay for that. I definitely think there's some companies out there, especially like some of the larger oil companies and things like that, that we could try doing that, but.

It just, I don't know, it just kind of blew my mind the fact that they won. And I kind of did go down a rabbit hole and there are some, some suits in progress here in America. But I just think that in America, it's going to be even harder. Like if you remember, we did the amazing race to zero waste episode, which we highlighted Switzerland as like.

Chadwick (06:26.252)
Mm -hmm.

Chadwick (06:34.924)
Mm -hmm.

Chadwick (06:45.516)
Yeah. Yeah.

Shane (06:50.35)
Was it the number one carbon lead country? It's like top three if it's not number one. So it really surprised me even for that fact of just like, oh, I thought Switzerland was doing it right. And to find out that these women are suing.

Chadwick (06:56.19)
Yeah, yeah, with some of the things that they're already doing. Yeah.

Chadwick (07:15.66)
in a high court sided with them. Because that usually, when you're researching, I can't imagine you found many, if you found any, doesn't happen. They're like, no, no, no. Usually, the plaintiffs are like, the court says, you guys don't have a right to standing. The grounds you're suing on aren't, you don't own the right to a clean environment.

Shane (07:25.806)
No.

Chadwick (07:38.988)
because it's not written into our law or it's not written into our policy or it is, there's nowhere that says that you have this right. And that's what I think is really important. Like if we take a step back, I, in my mind, I equate this court case to similar legal challenges against the tobacco industry in the nineties and where they had to pay all these repercussions of polluting the air for other people. Smokers,

Shane (07:46.542)
Right.

Shane (08:07.214)
Yeah.

Chadwick (08:07.628)
Because in the end, it was really like who owned the right of clean air in the United States? Was it the people that smoke cigarettes or the people that didn't smoke cigarettes? Because if you're listening to this podcast, there's a good chance you grew up where ashtrays were everywhere and you could smoke just about everywhere from like in the bathroom on the airplane to the every restaurant inside of the cars that you rode. Like maybe the bus driver was smoking while I brought you to school.

Shane (08:28.512)
Yeah. Yep.

Chadwick (08:35.692)
You know, teachers were outside smoke, like, right? You know, cigarettes were everywhere. Just work, you know, really, really great job tobacco companies of making sure your products sold and worked. Um, but eventually that tide turned right. And there's many reasons we could unpack all that and actually talk about the carbon light lens of how that was better for our environment. Um, or not because of the replacements. Um, but anyways, like, so the non -smokers finally won the right.

Shane (08:37.166)
Crazy.

Shane (08:43.662)
They, yeah.

Chadwick (09:04.492)
to own clean air around them in the United States, right? That's a big deal, it's a big statement to make, and because it's changed the quality of life for all of us that didn't smoke, that, you know, but it took something monumental like that. So for me, like this group of Swiss women, there's a name in the article, like they have, they're like a club, I forget what it is. But like now own.

Shane (09:07.726)
Yep. Yeah.

Shane (09:26.382)
Yeah, yeah, I forget what it was. Yep.

Chadwick (09:31.468)
the accountability rights to the Swiss government to saying, like you said, you would do these things. Why aren't you doing them? And I kind of want to unpack a little bit with what you just said about like, yeah, so if everyone starts suing their cities, municipalities and governments, and if they do have standing and win, I'm what in my mind, it forces these policymakers to decide where the tax dollars are going, where they're going to invest new tax dollars. And then that becomes trade offs, right? So do we keep?

Shane (09:36.142)
Mm -hmm.

Chadwick (10:01.516)
Do we cut library services? Do we cut public? Like, I don't know, like what they're going to cut or not cut if they have to do this, but it does force them to commit the money behind the statements that they're saying that they're going to lower their carbon footprint and lower the carbon. Um, just the race to like zero carbon by 2050. I think it's like the United States pledge with like goals to get in, you know, even sooner. Um, but like, can we actually get there if you start measuring today?

Shane (10:15.118)
Yeah.

Chadwick (10:30.508)
they're saying no, like there's no way we're gonna lower all that carbon in time by 2050. So I think to me, I think of it as a form of accountability because it's really easy to promise these pledges. It's really hard to execute them, especially you can promise them and then you get everyone that says no thanks or not my backyard or, you know, I'm overgeneralizing there but.

Shane (10:59.086)
I found some statistics on...

Chadwick (10:59.404)
But anyways.

Shane (11:04.782)
It looks like Columbia University, so columbia .edu. So it says that according to the report, which let's see.

Shane (11:21.23)
I can't find the name of the report right now, but Columbia University, pretty reputable, you know. But the number of climate cases has more than doubled in the last five years and litigation is expected to continually increase. It says that as of the start of this year, 2023 is when this was written. So there were 2 ,180 climate change cases underway around the world with.

1 ,522 in the United States alone. And then that covers 55 different countries. But it also says many of the US cases so far have been thrown out of court. So yeah.

Chadwick (12:03.66)
Mm -hmm.

truth.

Shane (12:07.982)
But like you said, with your smoking example, we have to continue to do this in order to make the change. Yes, most of them are being thrown out right now, but all it takes is that one big win to get the ball rolling.

Chadwick (12:29.036)
Thousand times true like because I think smoking is we it's a really apt example in my mind. So I'm curious Shane because there's two cases because I was like, oh my god I've like read and read about this stuff and the United States and there's one one specifically called Jul it's Julian or yeah, Julianna versus United States.

And this was since 2015 where like, and this is the contrast of like what these this group of late women in Switzerland, which I get my.

Shane (13:08.942)
Yeah, I was trying to find what the...

Chadwick (13:16.972)
Okay, not made it like this is a quote. Remember, they're the climate senior Inon is like the senior women of climate. Elizabeth Stern 76 told BBC said she's seen all the climate. So it's on this change and she's a child growing up on a farm. As for the commitment, okay, she said some of us are just made that way. We're not made to sit in a rocking chair and that.

Shane (13:24.398)
Yeah.

Chadwick (13:39.724)
We know statistically in 10 years we will be gone. So whatever we do now, we are not doing for ourselves, but the sake of our children and our children's children's. But what's interesting, the BBC goes on and shows that there was a court case from Portuguese young people that they tried to win against 32 European governments and they were like age 12 to 24. And they're saying extreme heat waves, wildfires left them unable to go outside and play and go to school.

but the courts turned them back and said you had to solve that locally first if you can come to the European court. And this is where I think it gets interesting because the case in the United States, Giuliano versus United States is in 2015, like 21 young Americans and at the time I think they were like eight to 14 or eight to 16 and they've all aged of course, this is like 10 years ago. Sued.

the United States or the Department of Justice, you know, is representing the United States, that because of their age and what's projected to happen to the climate in the United States, they're screwed. And in representation of everyone, like if we can't live a life that is promised to us from the Bill of Rights, Constitution,

the pledge to climate change and the Paris climate and beyond the other climate pledges. Like you guys aren't doing your job based off of like providing us the right to a clean environment, a stable economy, a sustainable system of goods and services, right? And this case has just been delayed in court this whole time. They keep trying to file it to get it kicked out and then people try to get it going.

back in again and through the appeals process. In essence, it still has no conclusion. It's still ongoing. But even the Biden administration is trying to kick the can and not deal with it, right? And good or bad, whatever that means. But it would mean like if these kids won, like the whole United States, it would declare that we as people own a clean, we own the right of a clean environment.

Chadwick (15:54.924)
and the government needs to work to provide it, which could look so many different ways, but probably won't look like what you're doing right now. And that, I can't ever see that case being tried because, I mean, it'd be great fodder for everyone that wants to be influential and get tons of followers. Like, I just don't want to imagine that hellscape of online information, but that one exists. But.

Shane (16:02.958)
Right.

Shane (16:12.142)
Ah, there be, I mean, yeah.

Shane (16:19.47)
Yeah.

Chadwick (16:23.596)
And I think it's a big one. Like if you're talking with climate activists or you bring it up with like a pro non, you know, environment person. Most people know this. The second one that I wanted to bring up is in Montana specifically. So still young kids and they sued the state of Montana for violating its constitutional right to a clean and helpful environment by allowing continued fossil fuel development without considering its effect on the climate.

Shane (16:35.31)
Yeah.

Chadwick (16:52.652)
And that's like, I think the positioning of this is really clear. And they won because Montana is one of a few states that has a clause and it's constitution that guarantees citizens a clean and healthy environment, which meant like if they're not providing all the things or they're allowing things to happen that are mitigating that, they are now responsible to fix that because it's.

in the constitution and the constitution covers everyone that lives in Montana and everyone in the lawsuit lives in Montana, right? And they want, which forced the state of Montana like deal with some of this stuff. How and what and the legalese of all that is probably messy and clunky and I wanna get the details of that here. But it's a case where they did show we own this. Because the constitution is the state of Montana says we have this right. Do something about it because what you're doing is the opposite.

Shane (17:26.67)
Yeah.

Shane (17:40.718)
Right?

Chadwick (17:48.94)
And that's where it just like, sometimes I think if we could get clarity around this, like we wouldn't need to talk about carpet like conversations because then some of the bigger things that would need to happen, corporations when they're profit seeking motives would start to update their responsibilities. You know, because they're, I mean Pepsi Cola, you know, Nabisco, you pick a brand, right now you buy shit from them and we're responsible for getting rid of the package, right?

Shane (18:01.102)
Mm -hmm.

Shane (18:14.03)
Yeah.

Chadwick (18:18.284)
You know, we're responsible, make sure it goes in the right bin. We pay taxes to the city and they are supposed to like recycle it responsibly. We've talked about this. Most people won't recycle correctly. About 30%, you know, Americans on overall. And then we're not even convinced that some of this stuff actually gets recycled like aluminum does glass kinda depending on where you live cardboard most of the time because it has a valuable second life shelf. Um, but I think

Shane (18:37.422)
Yeah.

Right.

Chadwick (18:48.204)
I think the ownership will stop being on us, which is what we talk about since it is on us, carbon -lay, conversations exist, and it would start to shift under the companies that are producing all the goods. Because I think that's what the government would do.

Shane (18:54.926)
Mm -hmm.

Shane (19:01.326)
I mean, yeah, it's interesting because I haven't even until this article, I haven't really even thought of like, are there people out there suing their local governments, you know? And, you know, with the ladies that are in the article, I'm sure having Greta Thunberg there with you doesn't hurt, you know what I mean? I mean, you're talking about one of the leading activists, you know?

for climate change in the world. But it's interesting. And I think another thing, one last thing that I found that may help anyone out there listening that if you're more interested about this and whatnot. So in the same Columbia article, it says that there's six major categories of climate lawsuits. So those six,

Categories are climate rights, domestic enforcement of international climate change commitments, keeping fossil fuels and carbon sinks in the ground, corporate liability and responsibility, climate disclosures and greenwashing. So that's, I mean, tons of companies out there you could sue for that.

Chadwick (20:25.868)
Ha ha!

Shane (20:27.95)
and failure to adopt or failure to adapt an impact of adaptation.

So I think that's kind of interesting too with those categories.

Chadwick (20:38.956)
Those are legal, yeah, legal, or angles to bring a lawsuit, as long as you have standing, right? Standing meaning like you have the legal right to sue someone about this thing because of the jurisdiction or the constitution and specifically where you live, because it's happening to you. But again, like the contrast of like these elderly ladies, like, hey, we only got 10 years left or less, you know, and you're shitting on the way we live by not doing anything. And then,

Shane (20:43.278)
Basically, yep. Yep.

Chadwick (21:08.78)
The cases that we talked about here and it's a bunch of young kids like you guys are everything you're doing is shitting on our ability to live a life that we you all have gotten to live because of the climate.

Chadwick (21:21.996)
I feel like we could just come back to this and see where some of these cases have gone in the next few months.

Shane (21:29.454)
Yeah, this makes me almost want to, I don't know how much it has to do with the climate, but like in the last year or so Verizon has put up a tower kind of near my house and they offered everyone in the neighborhood free internet for a year. And I'm like, now this makes me like want to write them like we should get free internet as long as your tower is up and operating if we live within a certain distance of it, you know?

Chadwick (21:54.54)
Oh, you should push on it. Yeah, like, well, we'll keep it here. But we have to deal with the consequences. And yeah, and it shouldn't be. Yeah, yeah, because they just greased the wheel to get all the permits approved. And but and if you got everyone, everyone around that tower to say, hey, this is what we want, or here's what we're gonna do, you know, please address this. I bet they come to the table, a local representative.

Shane (22:01.262)
Right.

Shane (22:07.566)
Mm -hmm.

Shane (22:18.414)
Yeah.

me come on what's giving you know 100 households free internet wallets there yeah I mean they've got better lawyers

Chadwick (22:27.916)
Well, they will fight a tooth and nail I think at principle but also because how many towers do they have? And how many if I mean if you did that would you tell everyone I would tell them for you I would tell everyone that would listen to me. It's like look what you guys can do Here's a model. But yeah, I love that idea

Shane (22:33.87)
right.

Shane (22:38.414)
Yeah.

Shane (22:42.35)
Yeah.

Yeah, I might have to look into that.

Chadwick (22:47.628)
I mean, oh my God, I'm ranting now, but my suspicion is most towers are placed in economically depressed areas. And like most, not all, because you still need coverage, we're affluent. Economic conditions exist as well, but my guess is the land's cheaper and it's easier and there's probably less pushback.

Shane (23:02.158)
Yep. Oh yeah.

Yeah.

Right.

Chadwick (23:16.652)
So this could be a month, like because even when you think about access to internet, such a big difference maker, especially for low income families, economically depressed neighborhoods. And I mean, I don't have to talk about the virtues of having access to the internet, you know, but that could be an angle. It's like, no, no, no, no. You put these towers here. Here's all the horrible shit that might or might not be happening, but everyone should get free internet because it's going to lift the bar. Like Verizon should want to do that from a corporate.

Shane (23:31.758)
Right.

Shane (23:37.102)
Yeah.

Chadwick (23:46.7)
or at least give it reduced rate.

Shane (23:47.406)
Right.

Yeah. Yep.

Chadwick (23:52.076)
depending on your income and stuff. So anyways, I think you got legs there, Shade.

Shane (23:56.078)
Yeah, I might have to do some more research and write them a letter.

Chadwick (24:00.268)
Yeah.

So I really want to ask, I think this is the carbon of the question. Will you sue or look to sue your government for your right for a clean and responsible environment?

Clearly you're gonna sue Verizon, but let's talk about your government, your local politics.

Shane (24:21.934)
I'd have to, I mean.

Just reading those six categories, I feel like I'd rather, I don't know, I feel like I'd rather find a company to sue. I'm being a little greedy. When I think of suing someone, I think of getting some money out of it. I'm all for, I think that where I live at in Columbus is doing a pretty decent job right now.

Chadwick (24:44.364)
That's fair, I mean that's fair.

Shane (24:55.342)
to try and combat climate change. So I think that at any, for any time, I think right now is probably not the right time to try to sue them for that. But...

Chadwick (24:58.54)
That's good.

Chadwick (25:07.98)
there might be some corporations that could get, could, well, we, I know, we all, you and I both know a lawyer from Louisville, so.

Shane (25:10.51)
Yeah.

Shane (25:18.094)
We do, yeah. So, yeah, we might have to reach out to them. But I mean, anything to try to help the movement of just making, slowing down climate change at least. There's no stopping it, but at least slowing it down right now.

Chadwick (25:27.724)
Yeah.

Chadwick (25:38.86)
Yeah, I think I'm in that principled area as well. I think it would be a really great way if anyone wanted to launch a political campaign, like to be elected to some type of office, outside of the door knocking and getting to know your neighborhood in a way that others haven't or don't anymore. I think that would be a major statement that you could be making as well. So.

Exciting times, like I'm truly passionate about that question of who owns the environment. And as I think we close out here, I asked our good friend, the robot, who owns the government and its initial response is the concept of who quote, owns the environment. It's complex and varies depending on cultural, legal and philosophical perspectives. Here are a few ways to look at it. And that lists like government, private, common and public, pretty much like the textbook answer if I was in an econ.

Shane (26:33.326)
Yeah.

Chadwick (26:34.38)
205 or 305 macro economics class like they would so I may try to See if I can get to like but who truly owns it. Is it fair? Maybe that's what I should have should ask. Is it fair? For the people not to own the environment Anyways, I know we're wrapping up here. So I'll go down and wrap it all on my own and report back

Shane (26:37.71)
Yeah.

Shane (26:44.91)
Yeah.

Shane (26:56.398)
Yeah, anyone out there listening, if you, I don't know, if you're part of any of the ongoing lawsuits currently reach out to us. We'd like to learn more about it. And I'll try to, I'll try to get the ball rolling on my Verizon case and keep everyone updated with that. So, yeah, I wish we should have like a judge's gavel sound. I'll have to.

Chadwick (27:04.204)
Yeah, reach out.

Chadwick (27:13.772)
Yeah, that's awesome.

Well, have a great carbon lay weekend, Shane.

Chadwick (27:24.204)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah like that that's our thumbnail

Shane (27:28.27)
Yeah, yeah, credit Thunberg as a judge. Until next time, friends.

Chadwick (27:30.604)
Yeah. I love that.

Until next time.